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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 07:05:02 -0400
From: "Nutmegger" <nutmegger_7717nopsamo.com>
Subject: Re: 9-5 Passenger Airbag - how to disable?


"someguy" wrote::: > This will be a long posting! Thanks "someguy" for taking the time to answer my questions and providing me with some links. I found them very interesting and spent quite a while last night reading them. > > "Nutmegger" skrev i meddelandet > > > > "someguy" wrote: > > > > > Actually both accident statistics and research shows that the safest place > > is in > > > the front seat. > > > > Can you please post a link to such or provide your source? I find that very > > hard to believe from all the research I've done into this. > > *** Several of my arguments were taken from this page (unfortunately in Swedish > but maybe a good translation program can help) > http://svt.se/svt/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=112&a=473 <sigh> No fair, I can't read Swedish. I searched through google to find an online translation page and came up empty handed, unless I want to pay. Anyway, I did find this, but it would take me forever to translate what the article says. http://lexikon.nada.kth.se/swe-eng.shtml > Here three experts from insurance, authorities and research instute respond to > questions about the safest location to place a child seat. Actually the > insurance company is the same that has been investigating thousands of accidents > over the years and found that Saab 9-5 is the safest car (about 40% safer than > the average car) Wow, that's great to hear. I know I have always felt safe in my Saab. > There are also a lot of interesting reports from the Swedish National Road and > Transport Research Institute > http://www.vti.se/edefault.asp is the English page. I have not checked if > everything is available in English. This one wasn't and I'm very curious as to what it says, if you don't mind summing it up for me. http://www.vti.se/info/rapporter/edetalj.asp?RecID=2213 I was surprised to see this: http://www.vti.se/info/rapporter/edetalj.asp?RecID=1905 We wouldn't see an article such as that in the US. I loved the moose crash test dummy! http://www.vti.se/info/rapporter/edetalj.asp?RecID=1776 And we were just talking about music here! http://www.vti.se/info/rapporter/edetalj.asp?RecID=1773 What an informative page, I love it. I like how your country views transportation, the importance it places on it and from that page I found through links SIKA and the statistics webpage but have not yet had time to go through it all. I find it all very interesting and a great way to learn about another country. > > There are several reasons for this: > > > > > If the child seat is mounted in the rear it is supported only > > by the > > > back of the front seat, > > > > What about the seatbelt? > > *** The seat belt is of course needed in all cases but the dashboard is still > stiffer than the back of the front seat > > > > > > which gives a much more unsafe support than the > > panel. > > > The situation can be improved by using a child seat stand that goes down > > to the > > > floor, but it is still inferior to the front seat mounting. > > > > > > - Collision tests show that child seats mounted in the rear give higher > > stresses > > > on the child body than seats mounted in the front. > > > > Interesting, but if you look at most accidents many more involve the front > > sections of the vehicle verses the back. > > *** True, but modern cars are designed to leave the passanger area fairly intact > for front collisions > > > > > >The trick to reduce the > > body > > > stresses is to be able to have the child seat follow the car collision > > impulse > > > curve as much as possible (this is done by having the seat mounted as > > tight as > > > possible, welding is the best method here!) and by spreading the collision > > > forces on as large area as possible of the child body (this is done by > > making > > > the child seat back as large as possible ) > > > > That makes sense to me, but it doesn't explain why the front is better than > > the back. > > > > > > - If the child is placed in the rear never place it close to the door, > > rather in > > > the middle > > > > It's common sense to me! I mean in the center of a vehicle with lots of > > metal on all sides. > > > > >(and don't forget the supporting stand to the car floor!). The > > reason > > > for this is that the post between the front and rear door is the weakest > > point > > > of the car at a side collision. > > > > What does that mean? Your car will crumple into an accordian if it is hit > > at this point? > > *** No, not a modern Saab. Yes, that's what I had suspected. > > > > > >Also for a side collision the front seat > > > mounting is superior since the car is strongest at the front post, which > > in > > > combination with the fairly stiff wall between the engine and passenger > > areas > > > protects the child extremely well. > > > > Unless the vehicle hits from the passenger side, then all you have is the > > door for protection. > > *** No the front post and the engine wall form a fairly stiff structure in side > collisions > > > > > > > - The available volume is often larger in the front, which means that the > > child > > > can sit facing the rear much longer. Scientists recommend to have children > > in > > > reverse mounted child seats up to the age of 4 or 5. > > > > Scientists? > > Hmm....I can't imagine having a three year old in a reverse mounted seat. I > > did it up to the recommended weight of forty pounds, then I switched. > > The general recommendations here in Sweden are to have the child reverse-seated > as far as possible. Hmm....very interesting the difference in opinions. >The dimensioning factors are when the head goes above the > back of the child seat and when there is no mor room for the legs. These > conditions typically occur at the age of 4. I the front seat the leg room is > often better than in the rear seat. Wow, I placed my child in a front position once he reached 40lbs which was about 1 yr. > > *** A typical page where you find these recommendations are the National > Association for Promoting Traffic Safety (also in Swedish unfortunately) > http://www.ntf.se/konsument/default.asp?RecID=10111 Ugh!!! > > > > > > > > - Having the child in the front reduces the risk of ending up in accident. > > A US > > > study shows that the risk of getting an accident at all is increased by > > about > > > 30% if the child sits in the rear seat, this is probably due to the poor > > contact > > > between the driver and the rear seated child. > > > > Well, that is the drivers fault so to speak, nothing to do with what is > > safest for the child. Most babies fall asleep anyway. > > *** Well even if it is the driver's fault the risk is still increased when the > average driver handles the car. This includes not only the risk for the child > but also for pedestrians and drivers/passengers in the oppising lanes. > > > > > > > Car manufacturers tend to recommend to have the child seat in the rear > > just to > > > simplify their responsibilities > > > > Yes, but the insurance industy also recommends it as well as NTSB. > > > > >and to reduce the problems of being able > > to > > > easily disconnect the airbag. Thus, don't trust the car manufacturers in > > this > > > case, they are not looking at the problem from a child perspective. > > > > The scientists are? > > Who is? > > *** This statement is something you find for instance in the first reference I > gave, both insurance companies and traffic researchers have the same opinion Wish I could read it. > > > Facts here, seem to speak for themselves wouldn't you say? > > It leaves me with the question, how many children died from sitting in the > > front, verses how many children died from sitting in the back? > > I think the figures would be surprising to us both, don't you? > > I also think if anyone lets a child under the age of 16 sit in the front > > with a passenger airbag is stupid! How many cases of children dying does it > > take to get this through to people's thick heads?! > > I totally agree, the airbag is a very good invention for protecting adults but > it is not (yet?) suitable for use with children. This really upsets me. > > > > http://www.nospam/people/injury/childps/ > > *** In this link the recommendation seems to be that children above 1 year > should be seated forward-facing. At this age the mass of the head is about 20% > of the total body mass while the skeleton and muscles are still very weak. Thus > an accident will lead to very large stresses on the neck of the child. In this > report http://www.vti.se/pdf/reports/N46-2001.pdf that summarises five years of > all lethal accidents in Sweden involving children there are some cases with > forward-faced 3-4 year children where the investigation indicates that the child > would have had better chances rear-faced. It makes total sense to me, this info should be made known to people of small children. If a person is misinformed about it, then it just leads to children getting hurt unnecessarily. A parent can have the best intentions of trying to protect their child and still be wrong!! Unbelievable. > > I think this discussion has been quite interesting, clearly showing the cultural > difference betwee two countries and the way the authorities look at the > situation. Yes, I think it has been interesting too and thanks for taking the time to respond. This is one of the reasons I love the net, learning about other cultures and gaining insight into things from their views. >I think we have succeeded quite well in Sweden with 550 traffic > deaths per 9 000 000 inhabitants (61 ppm). This is low compared with most other > countries, e.g. US has 41000 killed in 280 000 000 inhabitants (146 ppm). Yes, it is very good. I read about the Zero Vision, very interesting to me. Also was the use of design of roundabouts instead of four-way intersections. It just made sense to me. Maybe > the figures will be different when counting vehicle traveled miles, VTM, but I > have not been able to find these figures for European countries. > > The vision here in Sweden is zero deaths in traffic. I doubt you can reach this, > mainly because there are always some people using the traffic as a suicide means And, all the younger drivers and drivers that drink and drive. I see your country has those same problems as the US. > but with methods like safer cars, centre barriers on all larger roads, adequate > speed limitation means etc todays figures. You can compare this with figures > like infant mortality. 30 years ago it was generally believed that the bottom > limit was reached but the figures today are about a factor four lower, in some > cases reached by simple means as recommending to have the babies sleeping on > their back. You think if I emailed the person who wrote the article they might have it translated already?

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