Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 04:06:51 GMT From: milt brewster <milt73nopsamc.net> Subject: Re: Saab Complaint
In article <bjdes4$i67t0$1nopsam34476.news.uni-berlin.de>, davehinznopsamcop.net says... > On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:50:56 GMT, milt brewster <milt73nopsamc.net> wrote: > > In article <bjat1j$h21m6$1nopsam34476.news.uni-berlin.de>, > > davehinznopsamcop.net says... > >> > >> What is your intention here, to start a cross-brand flamewar? > > > > No. > > I asked because it wouldn't be the first time. I've never started a 'cross-brand' flamewar. > Why include Toyota and > Honda groups then? (I've chosen to remove them from my followups) I included Toyota and Honda because these two companies seem to be building cars with better maintenance histories, and seem to be providing much better customer service than Saab is currently -- and these are Saab's real compeditors -- not BMW or whatever. > > > It was my intention to report a serious problem with an expensive > > new car that should not have had a serious problem, in a public > > forum where other people would read it and think about this > > experience before they make THEIR expensive new car purchases. > > What, that you had bad luck with two tires? I explained it quite clearly. Two catastrophic tire blowouts: bad Dealer service: a company that possibly knows it is supplying faulty tires on its new cars. THIS is NOT a small problem. I see enough other discussions here about tires and wheelrims and the like, to know this is a major concern for some Saab owners already. > > > I expected most of the snippy comments I've seen here. I was a > > Saab enthusiast, too; but that doesn't mean Saabs are perfect, or > > that the Company that builds them are above doing things that are > > worth complaining about. > > When you go throwing terms around like "criminal", blaming Saab for your > blowouts, it's hard to see how that sort of language isn't inviting > "snippy comments". Criminal is a good word to use. If Saab is putting Michelin tires on its new cars, knowing that those Michelins are faulty, then they are committing a criminal act in the United States. I find it absolutely impossible to believe that I had TWO blowouts and it was just chance. > > > I still made my point: ANYONE thinking about buying a Saab > > should consider whether they want to have TWO blowouts in the > > space of five months in their expensive new car. > > Yes; they should also consider that they could drive down the same roads, > with a new Lexxus, Mercedes, Yugo, Trabant, Ford, Chevy, or Dodge and > get exactly the same thing. I doubt that very many drivers of these cars have EVER had two freeway blowouts within a year, driving on factory supplied (OEM) tires. > > > Saab has equipped a lot of their cars in the USA with Michelin > > tires that might very well be faulty, as Ford found a few years > > ago with their SUVs. > > I must have missed the part about those being Michelin tires; maybe > Michelin is French for "Firestone"? One guy whining about 2 tires, > does not a trend make. Much more suspect is your car's alignment, > driving environment, or tire pressure habits. No -- but this is a newsgroup where problems should be reported and experiences (even bad ones) should be shared. I've since been told by several tire stores not to buy Michelins, and that their OEM blowout rate is about five in a hundred in the first year, on new cars. This is very high. In fact, my odds of two blowouts are only double the rate I found out. This means that this isn't an isolated incident. > > If Usenet newsgroups are worth anything at > > all, they are worth publicizing potential recall problems like > > this. > > Have you talked (calmly) to anyone at Saab about your concerns? Yes, and calmly. B&B Saab in San Jose. They were not good. > > As for the rest of your post (not snipped) I don't think it's > > helpful at all > > Maybe you should read it again then. I'll clarify the points you chose > to avoid. > > > -- except to note that I check my tires very > > carefully after my first blowout, did not hit any potholes > > Any? Wow. Where do you live again that there aren't any potholes? Most of my driving has been on well-maintained California freeways that I am very familiar with. ... never had a blowout before on them in decades of driving. My Saab does NOT get rough or abusive use, and I do NOT drive on bad roads. My driving habits have not changed, and I have never had a blowout before on these same roads. Potholes, curbs and the like are really not prime suspects. I am the only driver of this car, which gets light use. > > or make other foolish mistakes, and that you seem to be as > > snippy as you think I am. > > Oddly, I seem not to be the only one who seems to have formed that > opinion. Gee that must mean you ALL are correct. > > > Emotional denial is the first refuge of the childish. > > Indeed. Yes. indeed. > > >> > All this is not just expensive or unacceptable. It is criminal. > >> > >> What was the cause of the blowout? Did you have your pressures > >> set properly? Does your car have an alignment problem? Are you > >> trying to solve the problem, or just complain about it? My car is well maintained. So are the tires. I do not have an alignment problem. The second blowout was a rear tire anyway. The problem is not something simple. I am indeed reporting this problem to this newsgroup. If you call it "complaining," then so be it. It's still a valid issue, however you choose to characterize it. This could be a very serious issue for owners of late model Saabs. So could dealer relations and GM resolution practices, which have completely failed in my case. ALL this belongs on this newsgroup, whether you call it a minor issue or not, or conveniently dismiss me as a "complainer." While I am trying to resolve this problem, I am completely stuck. The dealer won't deal -- says he's not responsible. For the first blowout, he charged me $275 and took two days to install the new tire. Michelin won't even talk to me on the phone. All I can do is buy yet another tire and keep on driving. > How is the alignment on your car? You *did* have it checked before > throwing words like "criminal" around in a public forum, right? Yup. > > >> > No car, no matter how intelligently designed and built, is worth > >> > this. I paid extra for a Saab, precisely so I would not face > >> > problems like this. > >> > >> What is the cause of this atypical problem with your particular > >> car? I don't know. I believe that the Michelin tires that came with my Saab are faulty. Two of the four tires that came with my car have had explosive sidewall blowouts on the freeway in less than ten thousand miles of light driving. Either Michelin or Saab should replace them. I should have new, free tires. I would also like to know if national service records would show that more than around 1000 new Saabs a year have experienced sudden sidewall blowout failures from OEM Michelin tires during freeway driving. If the number is this high, then Saab has a serious product safety problem. It should immediately replace all these tires on any Saab they've sold in the last four years or so, with less than maybe 20,000 miles on OEM Michelin tires. While this probably sounds like a radical stand to most of you; it might very well be indicated here. For me; I'd settle for four free tires and a Dealer I can trust. > Further, are you stating that this is a common problem for Saab cars > in general, or your year/model in particular? Odd that others have not > mentioned it here; people ask about a lot of things, and that's not one > of them. I don't know whether it's common or not. I suggest that even a one percent failure is very high for a for a catastrophic tire product failure. Fords SUV/Firestone tire problem wasn't that high. I've heard informally now, that one in twenty OEM Michelin tires on new small cars are failing before they hit 12000 miles. That's pretty bad. ******* Don't dismiss this issue just because it is a low-percentage issue. Most serious Manufacturer-related product problems happen rarely: Let's say one percent or less. From your perspective on Usenet, a problem can look trivial. Maybe I ought to just quit whining and take that 1:100 chance, and just enjoy my Saab like you do. But let's look more closely at the real statistics here. Where you or I could individually take the risk if we had a 100:1 chance of beating the odds, this doesn't work from Saab's perspective. Saab sells a lot of cars. Given their yearly sales, even one 100:1-level single serious product fault in their cars will certainly cause a thousand accidents, five hundred injuries and a hundred deaths a year, every year. Remember: That faulty equipment is installed somewhere; just perhaps not on the car *you* happened to buy. This cost is a certainty for them, and it's expensive. They can't ignore it. And it gets worse. Automobiles are complex products. Saab might have more than one low-odds product problem. There might be a dozen... or a hundred. And Saab owners don't drive our cars for just one year: Maybe we keep them for five years. ... so these small 1:100 risks add up for us as drivers, until the risk that SOMEthing will happen to us that shouldn't have, might actually be very high. So, Saab isn't looking at just one product problem; they might be looking at dozens that they have to manage. ... and WE might be looking at shorter odds than we think, too. ... and all of this puts a whole new light on product quality and consumer service. The most profitable way to build a complex modern product, is to design it well and build it correctly in the first place; and then to fix it quickly if something slips by, before the problem spreads. A tech or mechanic can probably earn his/her salary for a year, just catching two or three potential accidents like this and simply fixing them. That's what Saab should be doing. **** And all of this is beside the point. I drive a new, well-maintained Saab with 10,000 miles on it. I have had two freeway blowouts on OEM tires in six months. This is not acceptable. The response I got from the Dealer and from the Tire Mfgr was also not acceptable: It was like dealing with a Chrysler dealer in 1958. mb
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