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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:30:40 GMT
From: milt brewster <milt73nopsamc.net>
Subject: Re: Tire/Tyre Favorites/Favourites & Why


In article <ui4nlv43pidbamcc4g6qru8elt8bgr5ehlnopsamcom>, madynnopsametcom.com says... > On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 19:18:40 GMT, "J. Harris" > <insectonopsamspringx.com> wrote: > > >With all the negativity surrounding Michelins in some other post, I'm > >curious to learn what are y'alls favorite Summer treads and why? > >Myself, I've come to adore Dunlop's SP8000s (205/55-R16); if only I'd > >thought about tread life though :o) > > *I* would like to know exactly which Michelins were on his car. > Apparently, the details are not forthcoming... I have made three long replies to you in the last several days. I am sorry that none of them made it to your server. I have copied my original reply to you, below the line. Other people have indeed responded to this post, so I know it posted OK. I don't intend to intrude on this thread. I'm not a troll. I do want to note, though, that I bought two Dunlop Sports (good, but not premium tires) that seem to be better tires than the Michelins they replaced. I think they might be better, because they run *much* cooler and hold air pressure much better than the Michelins do. > > Harvey > > >Happy Saabing! > > ******** Here is my original reply to you ************** I didn't see your post until just now. I have Michelin 195 X 60 X 15 MXV M+X tires on my 2001 Saab Base 9-3 coupe. These are the standard tires that came as original equipment with the car. If you phone a Michelin retailer and tell them you have my car; this is the tire they would try to sell you as an OEM replacement tire. The Left Front and Right Rear tires have blown out. One in March at about 4500 miles; and one this week at 10,300 miles. The car shows only 10,350 miles now. 3000 miles were leisurely 500-mile trips to nearby cities in the American Far West, where freeways are quite good: Very "easy" miles for tire wear. I usually drive less than 70 MPH because of traffic conditions. I don't think I've ever driven more than 82 MPH or so (and that's stretching it), even on my trip to Nevada. ****** > OK, well *I* don't know it. What other cause could you say was > responsible, other than faulty manufacturing? I've driven for a > while, and I have had Michelins on my cars, but not all of them.... > So what was defective, how was it defective, do you think that > this is on *all* michelin tires, and is this an old or a new > problem? Could it be related to a bad batch from a > particular run, as in the Firestone problems? ******* Informally; I now think I should consider three possible causes: Road damage, defective wheel rim design, and defective tires. ++++ ROAD DAMAGE I drive conservatively, mostly on well-maintained freeways. Neither blowout occurred after my hitting anything on the road. I believe it is possible but unlikely that driving conditions or my driving habits caused the blowout. ++++ WHEEL RIMS I have noticed twice now, that my wheel rims are apparently designed to literally shred any tire on my Saab 9-3 that loses much pressure at all. Here is what happens: 1) The tire loses minimal pressure and the sidewall begins to flex on the rim. This happens in seconds, well before a driver could possibly notice. 2) The flexing causes the tire sidewalls to flex outward. This brings the tread belt into proximity with the wheel rim edges. 3) A ring on the sidewall where the sidewall joins the tread belt comes into contact with the wheel rim edge well before the tire loses critical pressure. This creates heat and friction, and weakens the sidewall. 3) Tire pressure continues to drop. On a Saab 9-3, this almost always brings the tire tread belt to rest INSIDE the wheel rim, between the wheel rim edges. 4) With the wheel rim edges holding the tread belt, the sidewalls come into contact with the wheel rim edges at the same consistant ring of points around the tire. Consistant friction and heat at that narrow contact ring wears the tire out very quickly. But that isn't all...... 5) Saab wheel wheel rim edges are rather narrow. Once in contact with the sidewalls, these wheel rim edges literally cut through the sidewall in seconds. Blowout. I emathise; you don't need to lose much pressure. This design flaw literally turns a slow leak into a catastrophic blowout in seconds. This is a design safety issue, both for Saab, and for any tire manufacturer that sells tires for Saab. I am going to guess that if you underinflate an OEM Michelin tire on your late-model Saab 9-3 by maybe ten or fifteen percent (not much -- maybe the equivalent of a four hour freeway drive?), this underinflation will allow enough flexing to start this process. Your tire will blow out on the next 45 minute freeway drive you take, maybe one out of three times. Your guesses might vary, but they will still be very high like this. **** Go check for yourself. Measure your tire tread width and compare that to your wheel rim width. If your sidewall naturally flexes outward and your tread belt can fit inside your rims with a little flexing; you're in trouble. Owners of new Saabs need to check their tire pressure often. While the wheel rim problem probably doesn't cause blowouts, it does destroy a tire quickly and can destroy the wheel rim quickly as well. If you have a problem while driving, you literally have SECONDS to get your Saab stopped. +++++ DEFECTIVE TIRES NOTE: On my last blowout, part of my tire tread belt was wedged inside my wheel rim. The wheel rim edges had cut my tire sidewall free from my tread belt all the way around the rim. It might have taken as long as ten seconds at less than 65 MPH. I vote for defective tires. Both times, my Michelin sidewalls blew apart at less than 65 MPH. This simply should not happen in normal use, even with a high mileage tire. A tire is defective almost by definition, if the sidewall bubbles, deforms, splits or separates under normal driving conditions: This is de-facto evidence that the tire is defective. Because tires often cause accidents when they fail in this way, this becomes a safety issue. I don't know whether all michelin tires are like this or not. All I know at this point is my own experience, combined the informal reports I've gotten from about tire store service people now, at about a dozen local tire dealerships. Both Michelin and Saab are suspiciously defensive when I've contacted them about replacing my tires. When I call and tell tire dealers that I have a Saab, local tire dealers steer me away from Michelin tires. They say it's because they've seen some tire failures on Saabs, but they won't get too much more specific than that. Several Dealers also told me that they think around five Michelin tires in a hundred are failing (a very, very high number). This is 'anecdotal' evidence. I pay attention to it, though -- But again; you can't take information like this to the bank. In the United States, it would take legal examination of proprietary service records on a National scale to establish this as a product safety issue. That doesn't mean it ISN'T a product safety issue, though. > >>> Finally, 11,000 miles is not "NEW". But, IIRC, even OEM tires have > >>> warranty, so talk to the almighty Michelin to give you new tires and cover > >>> possible damages to the car IF in fact the reason was none of the above. > >> > >>No it's not. They know it, and I suspect you know it, too. > > > >OK, well *I* don't know it. What other cause could you say was > >responsible, other than faulty manufacturing? I've driven for a > >while, and I have had Michelins on my cars, but not all of them.... > >So what was defective, how was it defective, do you think that this is > >on *all* michelin tires, and is this an old or a new problem? Could > >it be related to a bad batch from a particular run, as in the > >Firestone problems? > > > You have not responded, please do so. This is a chance for you to > provide some information to the list on exactly what tires you had. > The Michelins come in two different ratings, the "normal" and the > "plus". I think that the same tires are recommended (by Michelin) > for the 9.3 and the 9.5. > > Again, which tires did you have? > > Have you managed to trace them back to a particular run of tires? A > particular plant? It is possible that the serial numbers on the rest > of your tires would be identical. I don't know enough about modern tire manufacturing, merchandising or tire labelling to have these answers quickly. My tires were made in Italy, though. I think I can determine the tire run and get some serial numbers in a day or two. > If you are dealing with a bad run, would it not be useful to know that > the replacement tires did not come from that run? The serial number > and other data might be useful in trying to determine that. Yes it would, and thank you. No one at Saab or at Michelin wants to be helpful with this information, and I'm not surprised. It has nothing to do with how "angry" I might be when I call them. This is a liability issue for them and it's obvious that *no one* wants to be involved. mb

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