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"But since apparently you two either don't know or maybe simply don't understand: As I pointed out before, it only takes one non-example to completly disprove any over-generalized and irresponsible statement of untruth. If you're having a language problem like you suggested, then get someone to translate for you before you attack me."
Look back why did I start this conversation in the first place? Somebody (a company) deneraliazed that addind a DP will give results to all T7 cars, more power/torque, better spool with no trouble. So the whole main idea of this topic was to point out that you simply cant make assumptions and over-generialize this issue, even though some debetable data was offered.
“So now you tell me I'm lying, which I'm not. If you would have asked for the information that you thought was important before trying to discredit me I would have gladly provided. Unfortunately you've demonstrated that it won't be worth my time.”
Did I not? Read back and see how many times info has been quoted from you. Starting with the dyno sheet.
You on the other hand have a very strange way arguing your point, you say that you have fact, measurement results etc, but you show them. Instead you waste your time here writing tens of topics, why. By saying “it wont be worth my time” has the same information value to me than “I don’t have the files in the first place” I don’t know you, nor your results and I certainly don’t want to assume thing before they are laid out on the table.
"When you look back at the original posts you will see that I do not have to demonstrate any increase in HP to disprove what was written. All that is required is to demonstrate that a loss has not been experienced and that the car is running fine. Now don't get confused here, but HP: Even though I've observed a nice increase in HP, and I can prove it, I don't need to provide any further information than I already have provided to prove the original statement wrong. Do you understand that? It's very important to the discussion."
Of course I understand this. With this logic I proved my self wrong with the case Viggen. "Loose power" can be understud in many way, loss of peak hp does not need to happen.
"As for the other issues of fuel and surging, you've become childish so I'm not going to go to the trouble of posting my wide band and boost info for you to discredit somehow--because undoubtly I've backed you into a corner already and you're ready to fight your way out any way that you can, which will lead directly to accusations against me."
I would want to point out that it was you who started to be itchy over the topic. Do try to throw this back to my face, live with the consequences. And again the information value behind you wide band and boost results is equal to “I don have the file in the first place” since I have not seen them. Once again, don’t you see that with facts it whole much easier to argue than with comments “I have file, but don’t want to show them”. With this typ of writing you only create the idea that “there is something you need to hide”.
"Some Details:
My garage laptop with data logging software is not internet ready. I suppose I could go to the trouble of installing the data logger software onto my home computer and post some pictures, but then you would find a way to discredit that as well. Your original statments were wrong and you're not a friend so I will not spend any more of my time trying to help you."
It sure has a disc drive for file transfer doesn’t it? Print screen is also a neat funktion to take snap shot that fit perfectly to a disc. Again this holds no info to me, since I haven’t seen the results..
"You don't like my trap times in the 1/4 mile? That's fine, I'm actually a little disappointed in them as well. Did it ever occur to either of you two that it's very hot where I live? See what your car runs on a 85 or 90 degree F day with 90% humidity sometime and then tell me how slow the time is compared to a nice cool day. And thank you 95power for the integrate comment, but since you must have forgotten, RMS as well as PEAK power is what I've been talking all along (RMS means Root Mean Square, ie, the area under the curve, just in case I lost you again)."
Once again you’re assuming. That ¼ quote is based on a run done in LARC CA, in weather over 90 deg F. It sure did not stop that viggen from running a better trap speed than you with less hp. Obviously something does not add up.
"then you infer that the dyno numbers aren't correct. That's not true either. But I suppose if I allow you to lead me along, the eventual result is that I'll be getting a Notary certified certificate with the calibration data and shipping it over night to you. I wonder if that would be good enough? The dyno is at a Porshe race shop, it is a DynoJet and it is calibrated. Another car, a mostly stock Viggen, was there the same day that graph was made. Guess what? My car made a little more HP."
In don’t care even if it is was a Ferrari shop. But you could have laid out the sheet in the first place when they where quoted from you time after time. Again talk with numbers to avoid confusion, I my self understand the word “little” as almost alike. So either the viggen showed far more hp than claimed or you car did not show 280. And if the viggen showed far more than rated, what can said about the dyno, even if it is a Porsche racing shop.
"In case both of you have missed it, the point here is that Hardware mods only will not ALWAYS be a problem. You can point to 10 cases where there have been problems, you can point to 20. It doesn't matter. The point is that I'm showing you a specific case where your theories don't hold water. Now. There is a whole bunch about T7 that I don't understand, I wrote that before. But I am not the one who is pretending to know everything about T7 either--"Here is little something for those people want to know a little more what heppens in a T7 car when HW parts are being swapped with out making any adjustments to the software." Yeah you go-on ahead there Vigge and tell me EXACTLY how T7 works, PID and all. Please don't forget to tell about the part where I bolt-on a bunch of hardware on my car, get a decent increase in HP, don't get boost spikes and don't get bad A/F. Also, don't forget the detailed part where you explain exactly how the supposed PID loop interfaces with the rest of the control logic. Your response? "Sorry, dont know the logic in more detail." "
Who is childish now? I don’t recall ever quoting my self for being a person that know in every single detail what goes on inside trionic. More likely, I wrote “want to know a little more what happens in a T7” Don’t you think it would have used a different word than “little” if I was quoting my self as a T7 expert? I recall also writing several times “this is about all I can tell you, since after this I would only be guessing”. Don’t try to force the attention to me, its your car after all we are discussing. This does not help your point at all.
"Don't you think someone who really knows what they're talking-about should know something like that before making absolute statements about what will and won't work? It is after all what you've been talking about."
Absolute? Who said that? Like stated earlier loss of power can be understud in many ways.
“Again, please, before attacking me---TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT YOU'VE BEEN SAYING AND CONSIDER THAT YOU DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. Either of you, tell me about the function of the PID control loops for instance, after all it's the crux of your argument--and besides that I'd seriously like to know. Unless you can do that, you've gotten over your head here.”
Again what is the outcome of this. I have stated many times that my understanding of this system goes only this and this far. Like said earlier it was you who started the childish like quotes.
“And again, if there is a language problem like you gracefully suggested, I suggest that you get someone to read and explain what is going on here so that maybe you can understand. “
And who is childish?
“The more I learn about things the more I realize I don't know a whole bunch. I have no reason to act like my car is fine if it's not. Why do you think I installed a wide band sensor and data recorder? Why do you think I installed a good boost gauge w/MAP sensor? “
You wanted to know, but why did you not shere this date. Hups, your laptop is not internet ready, that explains it all.
Do you see now what the problem is, you quote data which the rest of us cant see. There is no information value for the rest of us.
“More importantly, WHY DO EITHER OF YOU FEEL LIKE YOU NEED TO ACT LIKE EXPERT'S WITH T7 WHEN REALLY YOU AREN'T? “
You came up with this I did not. Please state out where I did quote myself as a experet.
Some NOT TRUE quotes:
"RICHER MIXTURE=LOWER OUTPUT
Well, I think for the moment its enough and it explains why you "loose" power when you "upgrade" hardware parts on the T7 engines."
Newer wonder why the loose is in quotes? No? Maybe you should have asked in the first place. Now you know, or read back this post to find out.
"Also one should keep in mind that once you change one HW part of the car to a custom piece you will be in this mess fore ever if you dont have the possibility to custom tune your car at some tuner. In the future if you decide to tune your car more, no stage sets will mix with the custom HW part."
And the point here? What is wrong? Look around you how many cases have you seen on this board that mail order tuning has had bad out comes, when the HW recept has been different than what the tuner originally has made the SW for.
"Now you go and change the VE with your big 3" turboback exhaust and the engine thinks that it's the same as before. So now the cyllinders are taking more air in at the same pressure, but only getting the same fuel as before."
What is wrong here? That leads to fuel adaption aso.. You need to understand the basic functions, which you obviously have not done yet.
"Dont get me wrong I'm not trying to force any info on enybody."
I could write that statement here also.
I'm finished posting on this subject.
Take the easy way out, be my guest. In the end it not my car on the table.
Ever think why this conversation turned out like this, could it bee the confusion caused by lack of quoted facts.
posted by 192.89....
, Mon, 13 Dec 2004 04:24:44, Sun, 12 Dec 2004 16:34:12
, Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:54:30
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