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Re: Blown Head Gasket
Posted by David Prantl (more from David Prantl) on Sun, 12 May 2002 10:46:02
In Reply to: , Kok Chen, Sat, 17 Dec 1988 12:00:00 

>  Given the education and understanding of electrical and  mechanical 
>engineering of the people involved,

Could it be that the higher the technical education an individual possesses, 
the stronger their opinions will be ?

I am also such an individual (BS Mechanical Engineering, MS Industrial 
Engineering).

I have however taken the time to look deeper and further into these issues 
than most.  Even to the extent of personally rebuilding SAAB engines in my 
garage !

The problem with identifying who to blame for is that there are way too many 
variables that affect headgasket longevity in a SAAB.  So many in fact, that 
they can be divided into the following logical groups:

Driver related:
1.  Not taking the car in for maintenance when scheduled.
2.  Driving with temp gauge in the red for more than a minute or two.

Service related:
Keep in mind that in times of poor new-car sales, a dealership could find 
itself relying more heavily on service revenue.  There are many things a 
service facility can do to boost revenue, such as:

1.  Substituting the cheapest available parts (or even used parts) and 
materials, while charging for new original factory parts.  Thermostats (with 
incorrect opening/closing temperature, and 2-stage versus 3-stage operation) 
and coolant (with incorrect pH buffering and insufficient
2.  Lowering the quality of service/repair work and paying less attention to 
detail.
3.  Performing far more repair work than is necessary.
4.  Intentionally creating a new problem when fixing an existing problem.
5.  Letting experienced/dedicated technicians go, and replacing them with 
cheaper less experienced less motivated individuals.

I am convinced that many SAAB franchisees have been guilty of some or all of 
these practices in the past.  No wonder SAAB has been disenfranchising 
(probably not a real word!) dealers lately, and setting up new franchises 
connected alongside existing Cadillac franchises.

As far as cooling system issues go, 1. can be overcome by using Original 
SAAB coolant (or Original Mercedes-Benz coolant) and Original SAAB 82-degree 
thermostats.

SAAB design related:
1.  Over-boring the 2-liter engine to make it into the 2.1-liter (used in 
1991-1993 non-turbo 900 cars) while not adequately re-engineering the head 
gasket.
2.  Adding unnecessary complexity to the cooling system, thereby creating 
more opportunity for a fault to develop.  For example, introducing a 
time-delay relay (900 and 9000) for the radiator fan, which can fail in such 
a way as to prevent the fan from coming on when needed.
3.  Locating the radiator fan thermoswitch in a cold part of the radiator, 
and specifying an excessively high switch-on temperature.  To add insult to 
injury, the calibration of these (German) thermoswitches tends to creep over 
time.  The creeping is usually upwards.
4.  Specifying 89-degree thermostats instead of 82-degree thermostats for 
certain new cars over the years.

All these design-related problems can be solved by using the appropriate 
service parts (Elring head gaskets, Wahler thermoswitches with lower temp 
calibrations, original SAAB 82-degree thermostats, etc.)and eliminating 
things like the time-delay radiator fan relay.

SAAB assembly-line related:
1.  Under-torqued head bolts in 1994 and newer cars.

>  you can rule out all the usual trite excuses about  lack of maintenance, 
>or not following the proper procedures

Not always, especially if the owner was not the *original* owner.  But, even 
if these really can be ruled out, the multitude of non-driver-related 
factors still apply.

>  driven any significant distance (e.g. > 0.5 mile) when an  overheated 
>condition has occured.  This is another 'reason'  why the head gasket 
>failures occur, because *everybody*  does this - right? errr NO, sorry, not 
>in these cases.....

OK, maybe not in these cases, but what about the VAST majority of automobile 
consumers in the USA ?  Do you seriously think that *normal* people look at 
their temp gauge and pull over and stop the engine immediately when it 
enters the red zone ?  Certainly NOT !  In fact, the majority of Made In USA 
cars designed and built 10+ years ago didn't even have a temp gauge.  Just a 
non-intuitive red light on the dash (just like the multitude of other red 
lights on the dash) which *might* come on after an overheating condition was 
detected.

>  It burns me to no end when this gets thrown back at me and I  know for a 
>fact I've done everything 'right' and so have  my colleagues.  (ah, but let 
>religion get in the way of  facts.....)

I don't know about others, but I have absolutely no faith in any kind of 
religion, in any kind of application or situation.  I, like you, only deal 
with facts and figures that can be directly or statistically substantiated.  
My conclusion is that most cooling system related failures in SAABs are the 
result of improper use and service, not flawed engineering or assembly.

>  The majority of the repair work to mine, and my colleagues  vehicles was 
>done at a reputable Saab & BMW dealership.  So,  while this cannot fully 
>substantiate the claim posed earler  that finding competent saab mechanics 
>is part of the problem,  it does not fully disprove it either.

A reliable, competent, dedicated and honest service facility is *the* key 
determining factor that determines the longevity and reliability of a SAAB 
head gasket, and every other component and system in a SAAB.  This is not a 
claim, it is a fact.  Common sense proves it.

On another note:  What would you expect from a SAAB/BMW dealership in terms 
of SAAB service ?  It's been my experience that SAAB in this case would be 
seen as a thorn in the side of the sales folks, service folks, and possibly 
even the owners/operators.  Even with the absolute worst level of SAAB 
service, such an establishment would still remain profitable, as long as 
it's BMW side was managed well.

You might have better luck with a SAAB-only dealership, which has been 
around for many years, and serves an established base of satisfied SAAB 
customers.  An independent SAAB-only service establishment with a 
waiting-list for new customers might be an even better option.  There must 
be places like this in the Pittsburgh, PA area...

>  it will not change my original opinion.

No problem.  You have the right to any opinion you prefer.  Expressing it is 
exactly what this list is for !

>  In addition, I have owned primarly american cars ... with  an estimate of 
>close to 2M miles total with zero, zip,  nada head repairs.

So how about the time I picked up a brand new (less than 20 miles on the 
odometer) 1999 Mercury Sable from Budget.  The next day, 100 miles away from 
the nearest Budget rental office, the car suffered a complete cooling system 
failure, and within minutes became undriveable - in the middle of nowhere.

>  Comparing those numbers to the Saab, in my mind, would  reinforce my 
>opinion - yes, I believe dealing with blown  headgaskets is a fact of life 
>with saabs.

You're comparing apples to oranges, and forgetting to consider that service 
establishments, especially those where technicians have time to spare, think 
of a head gasket job as a GOOD thing !

>  Now, I know of and I have heard the endless stories of  300K on a turbo, 
>and 200K with absolutely no mechanical  problem etc, but I would say that 
>this is not what the  average or normal experience would be.

That's because the average or normal experience includes average or normal 
level of auto-service excellence.  Those that enjoy decades and hundreds of 
thousands of trouble-free miles in their SAABs either maintain and repair 
them personally, or take them to the very few places that are willing/able 
to service them properly.

There's a very appropriate article in the latest issue of the SAAB Club 
Magazine (NINES).  It goes something like this:

A new technician starts working at a reputable independent SAAB garage.  
After a few weeks there, he asks the owner:  'Where are all the head gasket 
jobs ?  We used to get a couple every week at the dealer.'  The owner points 
out the short list of simple things to do and watch out for when servicing a 
SAAB cooling system, and noted that nowadays he sees maybe one such job per 
month, usually associated with a new customer.

http://www.townsendimports.com
is an excellent on-line resource to SAAB 

related maintenance and service information.  Tom Townsend, the proprietor, 
takes the time to maintain the site and to host TSN Technical Chat every 
saturday night.  A quick look through the cooling system section will reveal 
the things to do to make your head gasket last as long as the rest of the 
car.

I have not just read this information, but have applied it to all the SAABs 
that I have owned, and have shared it with all my family members that also 
drive SAABs.  As I said before, none of us has ever had a head gasket 
failure, and we have all experienced our used SAABs (mostly 9000's) to be 
some of the most reliable cars on the road.

>  keep in mind that the disgruntled population has probably
>  moved on to other vehicles and most likely do not read or  contribute to 
>this NG.

And so they should.  SAAB has hopefully learned their lesson that not 
pricing their products competitively and not managing their dealer/service 
network effectively leads to a loss of market share.

>  I will be the first to admit that my limited sample my not  truly reflect 
>the truth.  They are, to me, alarming.

With only bad experiences and no good experiences, this is the only logical 
conclusion.

It is my opinion that a good SAAB experience can only be had by 
purchasing/leasing a brand new SAAB (only for the duration of the 
bumper-to-bumper warranty), or purchasing the *right* used SAAB and having 
it cared for by the *right* service establishment.  Let me try to define a 
bit more:

*Right* used SAAB:  Has been owned and cared for by an enthusiast, who 
understands what the car needs to run properly and reliably.

*Right* service establishment:  A place that services SAABs exclusively, and 
has a large number of satisfied customers.

The shortest way to a bad SAAB experience is to scour the internet for the 
cheapest available SAAB in the country, and then to take that SAAB to the 
local SAAB/BMW (or in our case until recently, SAAB/Audi/VW/Porsche/Suzuki) 
dealership for service and maintenance.

If you are like me, and enjoy personally repairing and restoring poorly 
maintained used SAABs, the cheapest available SAAB can *eventually* lead to 
a good SAAB experience.

Best regards,

David Prantl
david_prantlno39sdcx6spamx782hotmail.com
'84 900S, 5M, 210kMi, RIP as of 2/98
'89 900, 3A, 116kMi, restored and SOLD on 3/24/01
'86 9000T, 5M, 198kMi
'88 9000S, 5M, 142kMi
'90 9000S, 4A, 140kMi
'93 9000CSET, 5M, 74kMi  -- FOR SALE in the TSN Classifieds --
'97 9000CSET, 5M, 60kMi
'68 97 Sonett V4, 4M, 76kMi, #000467

Posts in this Thread:
StateOfNine.com
SaabClub.com
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